Ethan: 0:00

Cute Intro Music Okay

Sage: 0:22

Hello and welcome to episode 10 of the teen horror podcast where we watch and discuss horror movies from a teens perspective. I'm your host sage and I'm joined by my co host and unpaid intern at my dad.

Ethan: 0:36

Hello everybody, Ethan here.

Sage: 0:38

This week, we watched the grudge a classic of the J horse sub genre. But first, we wanted to kick things off with a new segment a new segment.

Ethan: 0:46

What? What? That's right. And we're calling this new segment. Character development. Welcome to character development, everybody. We wanted to call it this because it's sort of us filling in our characters. Our backstory.

Sage: 1:00

Yeah, our personal lives. Yeah. Do you want to start?

Ethan: 1:04

Sure. I don't know. This cup. Well, I don't know. I guess that's it. I don't have anything prepared.

Sage: 1:11

What's been going on?

Ethan: 1:12

Who wrote this script? Yeah, well, it's fall in Seattle. And really, I guess what that means now is that we're in the new California, it's not raining at all. It's an intensely sunny and actually, the air is full of smoke. So yeah, I mean, but I feel like it gives our voices an extra special growl. Yeah,

Sage: 1:32

that's, that's what it's all for. Yeah.

Ethan: 1:35

We really suffer for.

Sage: 1:38

So I have been pretty busy with school, as my fellow teen listeners will know, hopefully. And I you know, I'm on the swim team. I am trying to get a club started on my school, which is kind of harder than I thought it would be. But a lot of moving pieces there. Yeah. But, so I've been pretty busy lately, but it's been a good kind of physio thing, because school really helps me get into a routine, which I need in order to do anything. Yeah, the summer is fun, but I sleep 12 hours a day, I wake up at noon,

Ethan: 2:19

then I go to sleep, but like pretty early, or your parents are slackers. You know who even are they? Yeah. Luckily, they're big believers in letting teens get good sleep. But yeah, that's cool. And it's it's October now. So there's a lot of cool horror movies on TV. Yeah, watch, actually, you want to see movie recently,

Sage: 2:41

I did. So I went with my friend to the theater the other day to see the woman King, which is very good movie. It's pretty long, though. It was really good. And afterwards, I was staying outside the theater with my friend and their parents and a few other parents of some other kids that had come. And they were talking about the movie trailers for these movies that had come before the actual movie started. And a lot of them were horror movies. And it was funny, because I could hear these two dads talking to each other being like, that trailer was so scary. I don't know why they even make those movies. Who likes them? And I didn't say anything. I didn't say anything. Because

Ethan: 3:19

what kind of deviant would watch.

Sage: 3:22

They're like, yeah, they're like, That is terrifying. But I guess there must be some kind of market for it, because they keep making them. And I'm standing here like, I didn't say anything, because I didn't want to be that person. That was like, by the way, actually, I have a podcast about it. But you know,

Ethan: 3:38

yes, I think but it's fine. To say like, actually, I love her. Yeah, no, I love being scared. Yeah,

Sage: 3:44

I mean, that's obviously I'm not saying anything bad about them. You know, people have their preferences. It was just funny because I guess they were so different than you you know cuz he's you are you love more

Ethan: 3:57

in the sense that they should concern over what types of content their children were consuming.

Sage: 4:01

Yeah. Um,

Ethan: 4:04

for the record, I am hyper aware of we're gonna content you can see him but I guess my philosophy This is actually kind of irrelevant, right? Like, we I don't know, do we? We've talked about this early episodes, but you watch horror films, and there's there's some stuff where I'm like, This is not appropriate. Yeah. Right. And for sure, like your brother was done it the other night, and we were gonna watch a different movie. And I was like, No, this is probably too much for you. Yeah. And actually kind of involve you guys in that discussion. It's not like, like, you know, if I'm on the fence about it, especially I'd be like, when do you think you can handle this particular content?

Sage: 4:42

Yeah, I think a really valuable opportunity is that you let us decide, like, my brother, my younger brother, he was he tried to watch the grudge with us twice, and both times he had to bail pretty early on in the film just because he He knew that it was getting too much for him. And that's a really valuable thing to know that, and that's a skill that you wouldn't be able to, to develop if your parents were always sheltering you. Yeah. And also, I don't want to like, comment on anybody's parenting because I am not a parent, and you know, no judgment. I'm not gonna judge. Yeah, but I just think that it is a very valuable opportunity to be able to regulate yourself.

Ethan: 5:28

It's a little bit like the idea of, I guess this sometimes called Free Range kids or whatever, where you let your kids go farther afield. But, I mean, we don't really give it a name. But we used to do stuff like that with you guys all the time, where it'd be like, just head out. It's fine. Yeah, I'm like your brother goes out all over the place in the city. Yeah. on public transport.

Sage: 5:48

Me, I do that too.

Ethan: 5:49

And I do too. I mean, you do as well, for sure. Maybe even farther than he goes. So but yeah, I mean, and but it's sort of the same thing with media, isn't it? Like, we're, we're letting you kind of like travel around the media environment. And I mean, let's be realistic, like, you're gonna encounter stuff online that is either appropriate or inappropriate, and you have to be able to handle that. And make good decisions yourself. When we're not there to do it for you. It like, we can't filter everything for you all the time.

Sage: 6:20

It's like you, you have to know when you're on the internet, that it is impossible to avoid things that you don't want to see, you can minimize them. But you will always see something that freaks you out or grosses you out or whatever. And if you've never had a experience like that before, because you haven't had the chance to then you won't know what to do, and it'll be this big thing. And it'll really freak you out. You know, and I mean, I've had experiences like that too. But because I have a good sense of, I guess, Internet safety because of you. It is something that I'm able to handle better. And I like the other day, I had to explain to my friend that those like messages from unknown numbers that are being like, Hi, is this Sherry are bots and they're not real,

Ethan: 7:16

or they're real? No, they're real people. Yeah, but they're

Sage: 7:19

not. They're not looking for Sherry, you know, they're looking for an old guy who is like, oh, my gosh, is this a young woman I'm speaking to Yeah, because the everything I get those messages to and every single one is like, Hi, I'm 25 I live in New York, but I'm from Vietnam or whatever. They're hoping that you're like a weak

Ethan: 7:37

target. Anybody? They'll they'll target. No, I was reading, you know, the, in the paper, there was a woman that was targeted. And really scammed out of tons of money. And yeah, no, it's their equal opportunity. Scammers. Yeah, terrible.

Sage: 7:51

So PSA, if a number you don't know, messages use something like is this? Sherry from the PTA meeting or whatever? Don't answer. Yeah, just block them. Because when you answer, your number then gets put on more spam list because they know you're an active number. I like you're an actual person.

Ethan: 8:13

Yeah, they I'm sure they keep track. So usually, yeah. Well, they, they, once they have you on the hook, it depends how long of a con they're running. You're basically I mean, these operations run like businesses. So yeah. The horrors of the internet. Right? Is anything else going on? You want to talk about for character development? It's brand new segment. So a little rambley. We'll tighten it up, folks. Okay, give us time.

Sage: 8:37

I watched fight club last night for the first time long overdue. But also, I'm kind of glad I waited until I was old enough to appreciate the theme of it more, I think, yeah, because of movies like that. The first viewing is very important, you know? And if you're viewing it before, you can entirely understand it, which I mean, I'm sure even now, like at my age, there are things in the movie that I missed.

Ethan: 9:02

Yeah. And also, I also want to say like not every 15 year old can handle that film. And I think you can I'm gonna be honest, I think you can but you know why? Like it's not and I'm not talking about like the sex stuff in it. I'm really talking more about the violence than it which is really quite Yeah. Graphic and, and kind of horrific, actually.

Sage: 9:21

Yeah, it's a really hardcore movie. Like I knew next to nothing about fight club. Besides the iconic The first rule is you don't talk about fight club. That's all I'd see. No

Ethan: 9:33

spoilers here. Yeah, we can't spoil. Three two movies.

Sage: 9:38

Well, the grudge we just finished playing this video game you and me. Yeah, brother. Yes. Called the quarry. So I loved it. Oh my god. It was amazing.

Ethan: 9:48

Well, I would call it cinematic horror video game. Yeah. Basically recreates the experience of a slasher movie set in a summer camp.

Sage: 9:57

So we finished playing it And the thing I like the most about it is that although there are a lot of kind of long stretches where you as the player, have no choice and you're just watching things happen and play out, it never feels like a cutscene you always feel involved in it because your choices do have such a huge impact on the entire story. Like a choice you can make at the very beginning of the story can affect you all the way up to the end. And you You never see it coming. You know, it feels so, so real because every death and every injury feels so like realistic because you know, somebody games, you go around killing people people die, your own character dies, and it's not that big of a deal. But in the quarter and

Ethan: 10:49

the quarter, you really feel every character. Yeah, demise. Yeah, cuz I actually feel like I was more invested in those characters than I was in any of the characters than most slasher films.

Sage: 11:00

Yeah, because you are them. You are the characters,

Ethan: 11:04

and you're making choices, and you really feel bad because you're like, I have taken this guy down the garden path. Yeah, he's in such trouble now.

Sage: 11:12

Yeah, like I remember. I probably about half of our time spent playing it was just on the pause screen debating about which choice to make. Yeah.

Ethan: 11:22

Yeah, we had some great discussions. Like we had, like, you know, what's the best outcome to kind of discussions we had, like, moral and ethical discussions like what should we what's the right,

Sage: 11:30

yeah, we've had a lot of discussions about morality. And yeah, just what would cause the least harm? Because it's like choosing the lesser of two evils. Yeah. In certain points. Yeah. No, there's no

Ethan: 11:43

choice. Yeah, here are the five terrible things you have to choose from. Yeah, it's a smorgasbord of bad choices.

Sage: 11:49

But it was really amazing. And there must be like, endless gameplay because our trajectory of it was only one of Oh, yeah. I'm sure many iterations. I

Ethan: 12:00

was talking to my friend Brendan, and he had just finished playing it a couple days ago. Yeah. And he was playing online with some other friends. And he was telling me he was he was like, oh, and I did this thing. And I was like, that we didn't have that happen at all. We weren't in that place. We didn't have that scene happen. And he's like, Oh, well, what about like, no, no. And, and then, you know, I was like, I told him, you know, this might be a spoiler, but I can tell you what happened to us. At the end. He's like, wow, I wish he was never in that place. Never had that thing happen. So it's just like, we had completely different experiences. Yeah. I just think it's a really fascinating, like new it. Obviously, you know, I'm a big video gamer. I believe video games are completely valid and engaging medium. And I also mean, a lot of ways. We're still at the very early stages, I think of a lot of the kind of cinematic experience of video games. But this was outstanding. Do we totally recommend it look forward to doing play more games in that serious?

Sage: 13:00

Yeah. And it teaches you to think to stop and think about what you should be doing? Yeah, you know, yeah, there's a lot of video games, you don't have time to think about everything, you just have to act, but with this one, their life is in your hands. And you feel that a lot more because there's such fully fleshed out characters. And they each have their own lives and relationships with each other and stuff like that. And when when one of them dies, or loses an arm or whatever, you feel it because it's like, that was you.

Ethan: 13:37

So maybe we'll do an episode just on the court. I think it'd be a fun thing. Yeah, yeah. Let let us

Sage: 13:42

know if that sounds interesting. Yeah, I'll probably do it anyways, if you say no.

Ethan: 13:48

Okay, what else? What's up? Should we jump into our summary? Yes, let's get right on to the summary. Before we get into our summary, a quick content warning, as is traditional, this movie does feature content involving domestic abuse. And we also wanted to warn you it has some pretty gruesome visuals and some gore. Just if if you haven't seen the movie, and you're thinking about it, just be forewarned. And as always, we will be spoiling absolutely everything in sight. So please go watch the movie if you are so inclined. And come back when you're ready. We will be waiting. We'll be waiting. And now on to the summary.

Sage: 14:35

2004 is the grudge is a remake of a Japanese film from 2002. Both films were directed by Takashi Shimizu. If you listen to our episode number three on another Jay horror film The Ring, we will be handling the situation of an American remake of a Japanese original in a similar manner. We'll be focusing the summary on the American film so that we can use English language audio, but we will have some discussion about both aerations later on in the episode,

Ethan: 15:01

we want to also note the grudge plays with our perception of film time, presenting sequences out of order and jumping back and forth in chronology. This is intentionally disoriented.

Sage: 15:12

The film opens with a dazed looking Bill Pullman playing Professor Peter Kirk. He stands on the balcony of his Tokyo apartment as his wife watches from their bed. As they own a dream he turns away from her before pitching forward over the edge. falling to his death.

Ethan: 15:38

The film cuts to Yoko, a young Japanese woman making a social services house call on an older American woman Emma, who appears to be suffering from dementia. The house Emma lives in may once have been nice, but it is now filthy inside debris and trash strewn everywhere. Investigating sounds from upstairs, Yoko makes her way through a closet ceiling into the attic only to encounter a terrifying pale faced ghost of a woman.

Sage: 16:30

In the next scene, we meet Karen Davis, an American student played by Sarah Michelle Gellar, who volunteers at the same care center as Yoko. Karen is dispatched by her supervisor Alex to the same house Yoko disappeared into. There she meets Emma more catatonic than ever and still alone in the debris and filth. This time, however, the house is also inhabited by black cat and a little boy who gives his name as Toshio. After calling into the care center for guidance on the situation, Karen is confronted by a malevolent and shadowy apparitions descending from the ceiling, apparently to kill the old woman Emma.

Ethan: 18:03

The film cuts to what we soon realize is the happier past. A for rent sign hangs on the same house. The Williams family consisting of a more alert and ambulatory Emma, the old woman, her adult son Matt, daughter, Susan and daughter in law Jennifer are shown the house by a Tokyo real estate agent. During the tour, the mother Emma seems captivated by the house and stares intently toward the attic. What can be up there to fix her attention so. Only days into their stay at the house. Matt returns home to find his wife Jennifer laying catatonic on a bed menaced over by a ghostly little boy who yells like a cat. This ghostly visit is the last thing either Matt or his wife Jennifer ever see.

Sage: 19:43

Jumping forward and time again. We see the American student Karen's Care Center supervisor Alex, played by Ted Raimi has gone to find out why two of his volunteers are missing. entering the house after nobody answers he finds Emma Williams has died on the bed. While Karen sits huddled in a corner, unresponsive, eyes fixed on the ceiling.

Ethan: 20:29

Karen awakes in a hospital where her boyfriend waits for her a police officer detective Nakagawa, arrives to question her about her experience in the house. She identifies the boy she saw in an old photo, we find out that something happened in that house three years ago but what

Sage: 21:11

we cut to the other Williams family member Susan in her empty corporate office. As she leaves work for the night, she is scared by strange noises and dark hallways. She rushes into the stairwell only to flee a menacing figure crawling up the stairs from below. fleeing to her home and hiding under the covers in her apartment yields only momentary safety as she is snatched away into oblivion by ghostly woman that appears under the blanket.

Ethan: 22:20

The remainder of the film is a series of Clue finding scenes where Karen pieces together the actual sordid history of the house, she discovers that a horrific murder suicide occurred there. A wife Kayako obsessed with a professor, the American who loved to his death in the first scene, is accused of cheating by her husband, who subsequently kills her, their son, the cat, and finally himself.

Sage: 22:41

Things culminate when Karen's boyfriend goes to find her at the old house, and she must go rescue him from the clutches of the ghost Kayako. She tries to burn down the house but ultimately fails. Her boyfriend dies and she is kept in the hospital where she is haunted by the ghostly sounds and presence of Kayako.

Ethan: 23:19

No, right. Very good. You know, before we jump into overall impressions and the rest of our show, I just wanted to mention that Ted Raimi, who plays the plays Alex, the care center? supervisor is also in the quarry. Yep. Right. So all right. Should we just jump in then? Right.

Sage: 23:41

So I'm sure you have a lot to say about this, too. But I just wanted to say that that summary might have seemed pretty long and confusing. But the movie is even more long and confusing. Yeah. And the Japanese version is like, several that yeah, it's some crazy, like, distorted. It's really, I mean, I like it. But also, for me, personally, characters in movies are something that I find very hard to track and names. I don't know why. I'm just not good at that. And so for both the American and the Japanese films of the grudge, I was like, What is going on? Yeah,

Ethan: 24:23

so Okay, let's contextualize this for a moment. First of all, we haven't even mentioned there's actually a 2020 remake of The Grudge as well, which I have not seen. And it did not get great reviews. That has never stopped me from watching. But so I'm probably gonna watch it at some point. But this Yeah, so this was a remake, two dozen for remake with an American cast still based in Tokyo, interestingly, and have the Japanese original from 2002. But the Japanese original in 2002 was itself a remake more or less of an earlier and I don't know when the earlier film was done if it was like, late 90s or early 2000s. But it was like a made for TV movie. Yeah, which is also called Juwan. But it's called like do on the curse. Yeah, yeah. So this, like, it's really fascinating to me that he like, this guy is basically like, done the same story at this point in 2004, like three times. Yeah, right. And that's kind of a cool opportunity. It's like, okay, I'm gonna keep refining this movie first for TV, and a slightly bigger budget for you know, Japanese horror film. Domestic Japanese horror film. Yeah. And then, like, slightly bigger budget for like, kind of a Hollywood production. Yeah. Yeah, pretty interesting. And then there's a bunch of sequels which I honestly, tell you, I have not seen all of those. So yeah,

Sage: 25:47

so the franchise is pretty confusing. Yeah. As is the movie itself. Um, so you said something? Well, we were watching the Japanese version that I remembered. And was it what do you mean insightful? It was so witty and insightful. Now you're talking about how the Japanese version of the film is more like a bunch of separate people's stories that all connect to the house? And right, like, the cursor inside the house? Yeah. Why, whereas the American version is more of a straight story. Because a lot of the stuff is removed and kind of pared away.

Ethan: 26:29

Yeah. Yeah. All right, let's, let's tighten up a little bit. We're going to just talk about overall impressions, and then we'll, we'll get into some of the weeds later on. But what were your overall impressions of the American film?

Sage: 26:40

When I first watched it, it reminded me a lot of the ring, because the structures and the plot of both movies are very similar. You know, there's this weird thing that's happening. And then there's this lady who does all this research about it. And research montage. Yeah, pretty much, and you're finding out what's happening along with the character with the protagonist. So it's kind of like a little mystery as well, where you're trying to connect the dots of while this stuff is happening and why to these specific people. They both

Ethan: 27:11

involve a specific note will say it's time based curse, but there's a curse that has kind of an infectious nature to it, right? Like the ring spreads through videotape the grudge spreads from just being in the house. Yeah.

Sage: 27:23

And both have to do with familial relations, which I think is also interesting. And there's another thing which is that in the ring, Samira or Asako, for the Japanese one, she's evil. She's not a misunderstood middle child. She's just evil. Yeah.

Ethan: 27:41

And that really is about her more on the American version. Yeah. Yeah. Like, oh, my God, you're not supposed to let her out.

Sage: 27:46

Yeah. And then in the grudge. Kayako. She does seem less than nice. You know.

Ethan: 27:53

Yeah, she's well, I mean, there is something intensely malevolent about her. Yeah, sure.

Sage: 27:58

Like, I don't remember who it is. But in one of the scenes in the American version, someone is flipping through all these photos of Peter Kirk the

Ethan: 28:08

right? Yeah. Oh, yes. Okay.

Sage: 28:11

She's in them and Kayako is in the background of every single one. Yeah, looking at him. Yeah. And that is really creepy. That's the she's a stalker. Pretty much. Yeah. And her husband isn't that great either because he kills everyone. So that's kind of inexcusable. So

Ethan: 28:28

it goes husband, right? Yeah. Okay. Okay. Two things to say about that really quick. I just want to one more parallel there is the flipping through a sequence of photos. Yes. Right. Which okay is also just of the era that you would have a lot of photos printed out. Oh,

Sage: 28:41

and so anyone who's cursed from being in the house when their photo is taken their face is

Ethan: 28:49

actually in the grudge though their eyes just get weird. Yeah, that's that's like that's somebody's it's like a Photoshop brush.

Sage: 28:55

Yeah. Those are some parallels I saw and we were both wondering about why that is if that's just a common thing in J horror that Yeah,

Ethan: 29:06

I mean, I'm sure we can look at American films or you know, Western horror, you know, mythic traditions. Yeah. And say like, oh, well, there's always the the weird guy, right? The weird boy, right? Like Friday the 13th has a weird boy. He's an outcast. Something's wrong with him and goes on to although I guess you can say like, actually, serial killers are kind of like, there are those tropes, right? Yeah, those just seems so on the nose to me, right. There's so similar those two movies.

Sage: 29:34

Yeah, it's like it's like gingersnaps and Jennifer's, but

Ethan: 29:37

okay, at the same time, though. Yes. And like those two films like there if you look at the beats between those two movies gingersnaps in Jennifer's Body or the ring and the grudge if you if you were to make a list of the beats a lot of them are like I shouldn't say the beats but the the basic plot, I guess they look really similar. The beats of this story Though like sort of the big scenes, they seem different to me. And also I want to come back to the thing that you said about Tiago versus Sadako. Right. So Sonico definitely malicious and evil. Yeah, there's the Mara specifically, I moved into the game more. Yeah. And the American like, I look at her. I remember there's a scene in the ring, where Samar is like, looking into a video camera that she has been recorded in the hospital. Yeah, you're doing experiments with her. And she just says something mean or malevolent or scary, right? And you're like, wow, she but she's like thinking about it. Right. She's thinking about doing evil. Yeah. She's intentional about it. Whereas I feel like Kayako is like, she almost embodies just obsession when she's alive. Yeah. And, and sort of the flip side of obsession, I guess, which would be like obsessive revenge. Yeah. When she's dead. Right. She's still obsessed. But she's obsessed with like, whatever, just taking revenge or she has the grudge.

Sage: 30:58

Yeah. And I think so. Throughout the movie, you get more clips of what happened. Yeah, to birth, the grudge. And it kind of it falls into place. And it's a pretty horrific story. And you can just tell that the grip so they say in the beginning of the movie, there's text that appears on the screen. It's like when a person dies in the midst of a powerful rage. A grudge is born. Yes.

Ethan: 31:29

And I felt like that was a little bit of like, AF. It's like when you come up with an acronym. And then you figure out what the acronym means after the fact. Yeah, like, Okay, what is the grudge? Where does it come from? I can see like, the director is finished, like, whatever. It's all done movies done. They're like we need up front up. Yeah, we need some text.

Sage: 31:49

So I mean, I think that's a pretty cool idea. Yeah, totally agree. So they say that in the very beginning, which immediately already sets you up for what you are going to expect. And it's just such a horrific story, especially because of the little boy. He's maybe five, I'd say, and he's done nothing. And neither has the cat. Yeah. But they both just die. Yeah. It's pretty sad story. You know? It is, like really intense.

Ethan: 32:19

Okay, so I guess we're still in the overall impressions section for this, what I would like to bring up, which is that this movie is presented in a series of a chronological out of sequence scenes, right? So you're kind of always jumping back and forth. And you don't always know when you are, yeah, in the chronology in the film time. I went back, actually. And I read the Roger Ebert review of this movie from when it came out. Yeah. And he was not a fan of that technique. He was like, it was just annoying. Like, it's not successful. I actually like it. Okay, I like I personally, am totally down with it. And I don't know if it's because the type of media that we consume today, or we're used to things being a little disjointed or whatever, but I was able to roll with it. Yeah, bother. Yeah. But how did you feel watching it for the first time? Because I mean, I've probably seen it about three or four times. Yeah,

Sage: 33:13

so watching it for the first time, I wasn't completely lost. But I was I was just kind of wondering, how do these all connect. And by the end, it was clear. So it's kind of like a little game that you play as you go along, trying to figure out why they showed this and then this and then what's happening and how it all falls into place. In the end, an interesting

Ethan: 33:34

aspect of that is as you go back in time, terrible things are happening. There's basically like three generations of people that have been in the house or no, not three generations, but two occupancies. Right. There's the original Japanese couple, the one that they birth the grudge. Yeah. And then there is the American family. And then there's the period after the American family dies, where it's just Emma, which I guess isn't that long after the family does. Okay, so you you slowly sort of traveled back in time over the course of the film and you you kind of are trying to figure out like where what's going on like is that the American guy there? Is it that you know, the the current occupants of the house? Do they cause this problem? And then finally, you you're kind of seeing like, No, you're getting these other flashbacks. Where you know, where did that little Japanese boy come from? And you realize there's this other family? Yeah, but in the American film, you don't put all those pieces together right away. Yeah, but in the Japanese film right away the very first scene Do you remember? Yes, so that's they reveal the whole thing is a huge

Sage: 34:31

difference. I think he's exactly backwards. Yeah. In the Japanese film, the one before the American one. The they start out with showing the guy that goes husband killing her

Ethan: 34:44

pretty much in a really like Russo's Yeah, it's really

Sage: 34:49

scary and intense, and it's the very first thing so that sets the tone for the entire movie, and that makes it less of a mystery and more of oh my god, he's just killed his wife and why.

Ethan: 35:02

Yeah, and I think that's another way in which the Japanese version it is you're totally right. Actually, I didn't even think about that. But it's it really is not as much of a mystery. It's just sort of more of consequences. Yeah, like, Okay, we're gonna get it out of the way this happened. Yeah. Now it's evil. Yeah.

Sage: 35:18

After that, they show the ramifications that had on all these different people who were involved with the house. Yeah, at some point. So I think they kind of the two of us have different approaches. Yeah, that's

Ethan: 35:33

interesting. It's different from the ring in that regard. But really also fascinating. Same director, right. Yeah, he takes it. It's like he has this like bag of Lego pieces or something. And he builds two totally different structures from them. Yeah.

Sage: 35:52

So we watched Deleted Scenes from both the Japanese and the American remake? Yeah, this is deleted scene in both movies. Where Matthew is kind of possessed, I guess.

Ethan: 36:06

Yeah. So just to recap, Matthew is the this is confusing. people stick with us. But hopefully you've seen the movie at this point. Maybe recently, Matthew's the American guy moved to Tokyo to work. His mom AMA, whose cat like kind of has dementia or something. And then his wife Jennifer is living with him in the house.

Sage: 36:23

Yes. And so it's kind of implied in this deleted scene that Matthew has been taken over by the spirit of Kaya goes husband, right? Because when he passes a mirror, instead of his reflection, it's kind of goes husband's reflection. Oh, that's right. I forgot about that. Yeah. And he's dragging his wife, Jennifer by the hair, I think or something with this emotionless face on on the top floor, and he's dragging her into another room. And they do that they did that scene for both the Japanese and American movies. And both times they cut it out. I just decided to not have it in the movie. And I'm wondering, did the director try it again? And then decide again, that he evidently right,

Ethan: 37:06

or that it didn't work or didn't fit? Or it was too much? I'm curious why you're right. Like, why film a scene twice that ends up on the cutting room floor both times?

Sage: 37:16

What were your thoughts about that scene? How do you think it would have made the movie worse? If it was in it?

Ethan: 37:22

I would like it less, I think, well, first of all, I kind of like that the husband is not a big player. After the whole murder. You do have a sense maybe sort of possessing Matthew even without that scene, there's some other kind of implication. Yeah, you know, Matthews possessed. But the movie comes off as more of like a gothic horror movie in the sense that in a like a gothic horror story, there's always like a malevolent house, you know? Yeah. dark, creepy house on the hill, like in psycho. Right? It feels like that. It feels like it's really of this place. That is scary. And I feel like if it had been the husband possessing him,

Sage: 37:57

it would, it would have new implications, I think about how it all worked. And what was really going on because of this. I mean, because if they threw that in, I would then be thinking, How come? Some people aren't like, what are the rules? Yeah. And I know, I know that there are some cases where it doesn't make sense to ask about the rules or the logic. But for this one, I think there are at least a few sure, even if they are loosened.

Ethan: 38:22

I mean, I think the best movies. It's not codified. It's not Yes. Although in the ring, it's very codified, right. It's like you have

Sage: 38:29

seven days. Yeah. Like a contract.

Ethan: 38:32

Yeah, it's like please rewind. Yeah, otherwise, you'll be turned 50 cents. And you'll die.

Sage: 38:37

Yeah, pretty much. Yeah, and in the Japanese version, there's just so much that I heard.

Ethan: 38:52

Was it? Was it? That creepy noise that you always hear on the Oh my god. Oh my god.

Sage: 38:59

Yeah. So there's this sound that occurs in both movies, the Japanese and American and it's the sound that GEICO makes, or I guess her goes like her angry ghostly,

Ethan: 39:11

intense vocal fries. Yeah.

Sage: 39:15

Yeah, here before

Ethan: 39:17

she gets really slow. And really, it is

Sage: 39:21

amazing. I love it. Because it's not overdone. Yeah, I agree. It's not like you're hearing it all the time. And when you do hear it, you know that suddenly serious is about to happen.

Ethan: 39:31

I think it's really effective because it's clearly coming from the human throat. Yeah, it sounds like that person's messed up. Yeah, it's just a creepy sound. And at one point, actually, in the Japanese behind the scenes, you see the director making that noise. Yeah, he's like telling me he's dragging the accuracy like, and then you're gonna hear the sound and he like, just does it. Yeah. That's where that came from. And it's

Sage: 39:51

funny because in the interview with a director, he said something about how I think the reason that he chose that sound or the reason that kind of go was making that sound is because of her crushed vocal cords or something or something that makes sense. Yeah. Because I remember him saying that it's because of something that her husband did to her. Oh, when he killed her, like slit her throat or crushed your vocal cords or something like that. Yeah. And that is the sound that she made. Yeah. And you never really picked that up during the movie unless you were to make.

Ethan: 40:24

I feel like there might have been a deleted scene related to that something. Yeah, yeah, I

Sage: 40:27

think there might have been, and that I think that would have made a little more apparent. But without watching that interview, or any of the deleted scenes, I would only be able to guess at why Yeah, she makes sense. But I think knowing that knowing that what the director had in mind was that it was because her throat had been crushed or something just makes it so much scarier. You feel bad for her a little bit. Yeah, more than a little bit.

Ethan: 40:50

There's also some other I don't know if these are differences, maybe they're not differences from the ring in the ring. It doesn't matter where you are. You can't get away. Yeah, I think that's okay. That's one of the creeping dread kind of things about the both movies is you know, you just doesn't matter where you are. You cannot escape. Yeah, exactly. Your doom is coming.

Sage: 41:06

Like as soon as you're in the house. Yeah. You you're cursed you you're I don't know. Someone. Guy ago was holding a grudge against you. Yeah. And because he came in he went to her house, I guess. How dare you. And I would say my favorite scene for both the Japanese and American movies is when the sister she's getting off from work. And Kayako is trying to get her or Jeff seen basically. Yeah, pretty much. So in the Japanese one, this is their meets Kayako. While she's in the bathroom, I think of her office building office building. And she has this little charm on her purse that kind of go or the ghost of Kayako I guess grabs and tears off of her purse or gets caught? I don't know something. Yeah. And so in the Japanese wants you runs home. She goes through apartment. She hides under the covers. And she's shaking. I really remember how bad she was shaking because I remember thinking how hard it must have been to get herself to do that. Yeah. It was really cool. Yeah. I love that actor actually in the Japanese one. Yeah. But so she was really terrified. And then she lifts up the covers, and she sees the little charm that she had left in the office building and then Kayako gets her

Ethan: 42:16

Yeah, that's a great reveal.

Sage: 42:18

That's a great word is really good. Because you can see the moment in her eyes and on her face when she realizes that something is under

Ethan: 42:25

there. Yeah, because at first there's there's almost like a double beat there where she's relieved to find her toy or her little charm but also then immediately horrified because it has implications.

Sage: 42:35

So something my brother said that I remember around this time, so he was watching the American version in which basically the same thing happens except she's in the stairwell instead of the bathroom. That was I think when my brother had stuck watching because he said that your your bed is supposed to be the safe place. You know, like when you're in bed at night. You're all snuggled up under your covers. That's when nothing can get you That's it shatter that illusion. Has guy goes getting her from under the covers. She's under the covers with her. You know,

Ethan: 43:06

it's funny, like even as an adult, you carry that with you. Yeah, carry that sense of your bed is a safe place, right? Yeah, exactly. And if it's not if that's taken away by the ghost, then yeah,

Sage: 43:17

yeah, it's, it's pretty scary. For the Japanese one, the special flags definitely weren't as good. When Kayako descends from the ceiling, it's more of just a black spot. On the screen. There's

Ethan: 43:30

a lot of like, black Photoshop brushfield about some of the CG

Sage: 43:34

and the American one. I think the CG is better. But that doesn't. It doesn't really detract from the effect.

Ethan: 43:41

And you know, a lot of the effects are like heavy makeup on a five year old Japanese boy. Yeah, pretty good pancake, white pancake makeup.

Sage: 43:48

Yeah. And it can be scary. Some of the most tense moments are when it's really quiet. And then you hear like the vocal fry that.

Ethan: 44:06

And I think both films have some some of those very unique necessarily to Japanese cinema. But it's certainly prevalent in Japanese cinema where you will hold on a scene Yes, even after a character walks in or out of that scene. Yeah. And you'll just hold in a very static scene of the house, or the hallway or whatever.

Sage: 44:26

I really liked that about Japanese films. I think that sometimes American films can go really fast. Something always needs to be happening. But I think it shouldn't be like, I think that you should be able to have time to digest what just happened and appreciate the set and like prepare yourself for what's coming next. Those little moments of

Ethan: 44:48

let's just talk about the stuff for a second. Yeah, it takes place mostly in a house in Tokyo in both the American version and the Japanese version, very similar house on maybe identical house, I don't know and it actually was filmed on location in a house. Yeah. And in an attic unbelievably. Like, there are some really cramped, pretty cramped. Yes, there are some pretty nutty behind the scenes. The actor up in the attic. Yeah, they do a great job basically establishing a good sense of space. Yeah, in the house. I don't think I could draw a floor plan of the house, but I never felt lost. Yeah, other than like, maybe when you sort of feel a little discomforted by like, where's the attic? The attic entrance is in the closet? And it's all weird. And scary. Yeah, right. But you're not you don't feel like totally like, is this really part of the house? Or is this a set? You don't feel like you're thrown off?

Sage: 45:43

Yeah, yeah. And the part of the closet is pretty scary because a lot of people have addicts like attic doors and their closets you know and actually like we do we do ya and so you'll go W creepy now, never gone either again. But you'll go the first like social care worker that goes to check on Emma. She goes into the closet and kind of up through the attic. But before that she finds that the closet is all taped up.

Ethan: 46:15

Yes. Yeah. Tell there's something in right

Sage: 46:17

hiking. And that is so weird. You know, it's just like, How could that happen? Why would someone do that? Yeah. And she opens and she finds the cat and the little boy, Toshio,

Ethan: 46:30

Toshio, super creepy. Little kids as ghosts. Super creepy. Yeah, the way he speaks very, very recently about she Oh,

Sage: 46:40

yeah. That's like the only thing he ever says,

Ethan: 46:43

than when he's like opening his mouth and a cat sound comes out, which he does. does very well. Yeah,

Sage: 46:48

yeah. Yeah, I really like that the way the house is set up as you come in, in the front door. And then there's the stairs that lead up to the second floor. Pretty close, like right in front of you when you come into the house. Instead of a banister on top of like, rods, I guess it's like a solid wall. But then there's this whole

Ethan: 47:10

yeah, there's like a little like people. Yeah, right. And like you can see upstairs.

Sage: 47:16

Yeah. And then the, if someone's upstairs, they can see down. And it's like that for both movies. And Toshio is always like, up there looking down at whoever has just come in the door had a holding the yeah, there's like a jail cell is kind of like once you realize that he's actually dead. He's a ghost. Yeah, it becomes a lot more scary. And it's just such a tragedy, you know, because such such a young kid. And actually, there's this. There's scenes in both, I think both movies that kind of insinuate that he was drowned by his father and the brass tacks.

Ethan: 47:52

And I think we see that in the at least in the Japanese sequence. Yeah. And in both movies, there's there's ghost effects that happen. I don't remember in the Japanese movie or not. But in the American version, the director of the care center, Alex, he goes to check on Karen at one point. He's shocked he finds Emma is dead. You know? Yeah, whoa, troubles and then he goes back and goes on about his life. But the ghost of Yoko hunts him down. That's how the grudge manifests for him. And yeah, she's sopping wet. Yeah. Is a bloody No, that is a really missing her jaw.

Sage: 48:33

Yes, that is the thing. I think that like, they are actively. I mean, no, I know nothing is objective. But if it was, I would say that is the scariest effect. Yeah, I agree. Yeah, so I don't so she's obviously like, dead. And it's just her ghost. She's white. But she's wandering around the care center. Yeah, that Alex works. And it's like, after hours, just suddenly, he's like, Yo, go, where are you in London for you. But he's talking to her to her back because he's facing away from him. And then she turns and her jaw. So actually, the detectives I think they find a job in the attic. Obviously, right and yeah, and you're like, I wonder who's that? Is it my son by

Ethan: 49:17

the way? None of this ever does get really explained about like, why is your jaw there? Was it missing? Was it just like, does it ghost kind of rip you apart? Is it like physically violent? Because half the time that goes sort of just seems to scare people to death? Yeah, right. Yes. Here's Clea DeVos. character to death. She scares me to death, basically, or sucks out their soul or something? I don't know.

Sage: 49:38

Yeah. But then her jaw is missing, which is interesting. And it's just this horrific thing. Because then, like a long time later in the film, she turns around and then her jaw is just ripped off and her tongue is like hanging. Yeah. It's yeah, it's really gross. And it's great. Also great effect, because she's just shuffling along and at first you're like, oh, maybe she's tired or in shock or something? And she turns around her faces.

Ethan: 50:04

I think that was a practical effect. I'm not sure it

Sage: 50:06

was. I saw a picture kind of behind the scenes where she's like posing. That's right. Yeah, I think what Ted Raimi, right, yeah. And she still has that stuff on her. So I must be, like, practical effects. Yeah, it's really well done, though. real practical effects. Yeah, I think in like almost every case, practical effects just make it feel more real. And it also helps the actors to you know, to actually be able to see what they're supposed to be looking at.

Ethan: 50:41

Let's move on to our next section. Is a turn the lights on scary?

Sage: 50:45

For me, I would say yes. Definitely. Not as much as the ring was but then again, I think I might have been scared of the ring just because of my age. I

Ethan: 50:53

don't know. The ring this movie. 100% Turn the lights on scary for me still to this day. Really? Oh, if I watched the ring down here alone at night?

Sage: 51:02

No, that would be a lot. Yeah, it

Ethan: 51:08

wasn't, but I would be. Yeah, you know, sometimes,

Sage: 51:11

there's a little thing that it's supposed to like a universal a kid experience is like running up the stairs after you turn the lights off. So whatever is chasing you doesn't get you Yeah, I used to do that. And then I would force myself like when I got a little older, I would force myself to walk slowly and it was on bearable. I was like, internally screaming, but I was like, I have to go slow to prove to myself that nothing is gonna happen. I've abandoned that I've since abandoned because I don't get

Ethan: 51:44

like that's the three phases. You're like, now I'm I'm mature. Now. I'm gonna walk slowly. Yeah.

Sage: 51:53

Yeah, because I don't get scared enough to do that as often anymore. Yeah, but when I do, it's not worth it to. You know, I'm just like, man, like, if something is out there, then I'm gonna run.

Ethan: 52:05

Yeah. I feel it. I feel it's it. I also if I ever feel scared like that, like I will force myself to

Sage: 52:12

walk slow. Yeah, but I what really gets me is because we're

Ethan: 52:16

we we have we come from stubborn, stubborn family.

Sage: 52:23

You're selling guests for them?

Ethan: 52:24

No, Ghost. And if there is it's gonna get me. That's fine. I don't care.

Sage: 52:29

Yeah. You died trying to

Ethan: 52:32

as long as as long as I die trying to prove a point.

Sage: 52:35

Yeah. And I would tell him, I would try to rationalize it. Like they're just looking for a chase. Like talking about this thing that was even there. Just try to like, calm myself down. You know,

Ethan: 52:48

but what really goes behind it

Sage: 52:52

is not fun. Yeah,

Ethan: 52:54

pulling out all the creepy stops and you're just walking this guy? No, I don't want to anymore. I don't want to get to you anymore.

Sage: 53:01

Yeah. But the one that really gets me is the scene in the stairwell in the American one,

Ethan: 53:09

because we're the crawling up the stairs. So she

Sage: 53:13

looks down through the kind of the thing in the middle where you can look down and see all of the stairs because it's kind of like spiraling around. Yeah. And, and I think the lights are shutting off floor by floor, I think from the bot from the top. And it's going down, right? I think so. Yeah. And then she sees Kayako coming up the stairs, a few floors down. And when it's like, it's like these two things are descending and ascending. Like the lights. The darkness is kind of coming down closer to her from the top. And then Kayako is coming up to her from the bottom. And it's I just feel so like, like a compression. Yes. Oh, that's a good description. Yep. Like she's getting sandwiched. And so she just runs and it's really scary. Stairs are really scary thing and horror movies for me. Like imagine yourself at the top of stairs and there's something's like slowly creeping.

Unknown: 54:10

I think he talks about this in the behind the scenes in the Japanese film. Do

Ethan: 54:14

you remember this where he talks about feeling scared when he went to his grandmother's house? Oh, yeah. Do you remember that?

Sage: 54:20

Yeah. He was talking about something about how like, yeah, these Japanese houses are the way they're designed is kind of unsettling and eerie.

Ethan: 54:29

Yeah. And there's like old dark wood and there's all sorts of stuff that really kind of freaked him out. There was like, you know, maybe a shrine or something. Yeah, but he, what I love about that is he's like this. He's to really scare me. I'm going to tap into that. Yeah. And it works. And I Yes, and I think that's actually all the other beats in this film that are scary. Kind of tap into those. Like it's like other kid fears. You know, something coming up from underneath you the in the stairway, the being in Edie? Yeah, all of that. Yeah, it's funny if you if, if you go back and you look at all those that it's kind of like, Oh, something being up in the attic. Yeah, these are all very much childhood fears.

Sage: 55:11

And they are scary and like the reason they work for adults is because it that childhood fear never really goes away. Yeah. Because it's more than just childhood fear. It's what we have evolved to know as, like just basic knowledge of how to survive right now. Like kids tastebuds are more sensitive. Yeah. Because you know, when all

Ethan: 55:36

these things go back to illegitimate Yeah, cuz self preservation

Sage: 55:39

all the time was like, why are we afraid of the dark is because there used to be real things in the dark. That were scary. And now it's just,

Ethan: 55:47

why do we find these like, weird cramped spaces and haunted old house scary versus like, you know, why are there no modern houses that are haunted? Right. And there's another podcast, I listened to you kind of Robin talk about stuff. Yeah. And they they actually talked about this on one of their episodes. They talked about sort of the architecture space and why why we find being in these like small, cramped rooms scary. And he's like, one of the hosts of that podcast said, basically, you know, that he was doing some research and came across some theory around this, that we really need to have something called Vantage, right, which is like, you know, yeah, viewpoint, right, being able to see if, you know, around us, yeah, it's why we built Hill forts. You know, there's the ability to like, see what's coming. Yeah. And you can't do that in a, in a house with all these like little hallways, and

Sage: 56:37

exactly, it's, that's why I like, I like that people feel safe in a corner. Because that's two less places that something can come at you. Right. Yeah. You know, but then also, you're backed into a corner literally. Yeah. So at least for me, that's, that's my dilemma. Whenever I'm with the ghost,

Ethan: 56:58

go for the corner, run up the stairs. Just be I think you have the right strategy, but being stubborn. Yeah. I think is stubborn.

Sage: 57:06

So that's the lesson to anyone in any sort of moral perils. Stay right where you

Ethan: 57:12

punch the ghost. Yeah, I'm probably I'm pro ghost punching. Right. Yeah. But not expecting it. Exactly. Different powers that you run away. All right, what let's see. Is it turn lights on scary? I think we have a solid consensus. Right? It is. Okay. All members of the podcast agree. And have voted. Motion carried. Next up would be favorite scenes. I guess we've sort of talked about that. already. What was your favorite scene? Again? I forget in the stairwell?

Sage: 57:49

Yes. Well, and then bathroom. Okay.

Ethan: 57:53

For me?

Sage: 57:56

Yeah, what is your favorite scene?

Ethan: 58:00

For me, it's the scene in the Japanese film. You want to take a guess?

Sage: 58:06

Which one? The one with the girls?

Ethan: 58:09

Yeah, girls, but why? Why what particular? That's the storyline. It's when there's actually four girls in the beginning. Yeah, they're all in there partying or something or hanging out drinking. And in this abandoned house at that point, yeah.

Sage: 58:28

That is why I was confused about when in time this was very

Ethan: 58:31

confusing. Even if I had a plotted out now. Yeah. And like make a flowchart.

Sage: 58:35

Yeah. But it's like the school girls. And

Ethan: 58:38

so she leaves though. And she sees something when she leaves. Yeah. And it turns out she's seeing and now I forget if that storyline happens first or not. But basically, there's a whole nother storyline in the movie involving this cop that was investigating the murders in the house. And at one point, he's in the house. And he walks he like, looks down this hallway. And he sees this girl. Yeah. And then he realizes it's kind of a sixth sense moment. It's like, I you know, let's, let's just forward here. I'm gonna spoil the sixth sense a little bit. Okay, so if you haven't seen that movie, stop listening right now. But he basically realizes he's a ghost, I guess. Yeah, you know, and he's seeing his daughter, like 10 years in the future. Yeah. It is a super, like deep, poignant, and like, kind of mind blowing scene, and it's there and gone in an instant. I feel like you could make a whole movie just around that whole dynamic.

Sage: 59:38

Yeah, that isn't weird. moment like that is kind of an offshoot of what Kayako has done. I guess. It's just a little snippet example of how she has affected these people's lives. Other than

Ethan: 59:50

that in the American film, I don't know the Bill Pullman part of the beginning. Yeah, great start to a movie. Yeah, it's kind of surreal. Yeah. You saw him actually in Last highway. Yeah, is that he plays that kind of character of like

Sage: 1:00:03

I, I was gonna say it is like the beginning scene it is kind of quality. Yeah. Because it's kind of slow and dream like

Ethan: 1:00:16

something is just a little off and you're not sure what, right and on to our next, what's our next section then? What would you change?

Sage: 1:00:33

I think I would maybe order it a little more chronologically. Yeah, because the ring does jump back in time, but there's only two times it's the now. And then flashbacks of kind of exposition of what happened with Samira to get her in. Yeah, well, I

Ethan: 1:00:54

think maybe limiting it limiting the jumping around a little bit.

Sage: 1:00:57

Yeah. Or just making it more clear as to what like when it is. Because that's something you you kind of have to watch the movie a couple times in order to figure out when is what is happening when? Right. So I think I think it would change that. But other than that, I don't think because like if they had just switched up the order a little bit. I think it would be really good. You know? Yeah.

Ethan: 1:01:24

So So we I have we have notes here which is final girl. Question mark. Oh, this is gonna be does have a final girl.

Sage: 1:01:33

Is it chi go?

Ethan: 1:01:35

Oh, it's Karen. Karen. Oh, yeah, she does. Although she doesn't live. I mean, she's not unscathed. Right? Yeah. So So after the

Sage: 1:01:42

very last scene in the American movie is her in I guess this coroner's room. Yeah. And her dead boyfriend is lying on the steel table in front of her covered by sheet.

Ethan: 1:01:54

nothing bad ever happens in a scene like this? Yeah, no.

Sage: 1:01:57

And she's looking at him like, oh my god, this all went so wrong. Yeah. And then you see Kai go behind her going like Yeah. And she her eyes widen Crash Zoom on Kayak as I Yeah, your eyes widen. And she doesn't turn around. But it's because the movie ends before. She seems like Mary Sonico

Ethan: 1:02:21

moment though with the hair. Yeah. All right. Well, I think we have done this movie service. And yeah, we've done a good job on this movie.

Sage: 1:02:35

So if anyone still has not seen it, I think it would be good to see because this one not it's not as important. I think like there's no super major plot twist that, like you like you could still gain the same thing from watching it now even after you've watched after you've listened to this,

Ethan: 1:02:56

ya know you we spoil it. But you know, it's still fun to watch it. I feel like does Hollywood

Sage: 1:03:02

do some good? No, that is jumping around at time because if no one knows you will be looking for you. Thanks for joining us on this episode of the teen horror cast. You can follow us on Twitter and Instagram at teen horror cast where we'd love to hear from you. Let us know what films you'd like to hear us review. See you next episode.

Ethan: 1:03:23

See you everybody. Bye. Bye Yes, I do.

Sage: 1:03:41

That was our live audience. Okay, it

Ethan: 1:03:43

was like it happened just as I unplugged that thing. So what did I do?

Sage: 1:03:51

That was our drummer. And

Ethan: 1:03:54

yeah, we have a full band. Oops. Yeah, they're good. Thank you. Yeah, but unfortunately, our band only can only play once. They only have time to learn one song